tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post5303673478777642734..comments2023-08-19T22:42:27.817-07:00Comments on chevy spark ev UNOFFICIAL blog: Free charging SUCKS!sparkevhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-16074003288281716682016-03-13T10:41:13.623-07:002016-03-13T10:41:13.623-07:00There's no way to know if they're getting ...There's no way to know if they're getting free charge just by looking at the car, though 2013+ Leaf have a light in charger port. I did a "survey" by asking people, and only 3 out of more than a dozen people were actually paying.<br /><br />In the incident I had, I don't know for certain if Leaf was getting free charge. I did see that Chademo was empty when she pulled into dual head. Given that it had close to 70% already, that would mean $8 for about 20 miles. I doubt she would pay equivalent to 8 MPG (at $3/gal gas) if she's not getting it for free, especially since she started at such high state of charge that she got elsewhere. I assume that was home, and she's just "topping off".<br /><br />But for the benefit of doubt, it could be that she had to go somewhere afterwards that needed more. I don't know for certain, but that seems unlikely. It could also be that she's oblivious to how much she's actually paying (8 MPG). That's why I wrote a "love letter" for Leaf DCFC drivers to inform them of the cost.<br /><br />http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/love-letter-to-nissan-leaf-dcfc-users.html<br /><br />Glad you find my posts informative. While some could be helpful (ie, range and range polynomial), some are just rants to vent my frustration such as this one. Hopefully, some rants will help, too, by letting the world know of the issues facing some EV drivers.sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-1076309936323632392016-03-12T07:23:58.746-08:002016-03-12T07:23:58.746-08:00Can you tell if someone is charging for free? I k...Can you tell if someone is charging for free? I know that if you are not a dcfc evgo subscriber you will be charged $4.95 to switch to another charger (which could have been occupied earliar). I would not want to switch chargers if I had to pay an extra $5. Thanks for all your blogs and forum posts, very informative.Garrityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15617422090946984143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-65289745057339468142015-10-29T20:27:35.638-07:002015-10-29T20:27:35.638-07:00Updated the love letter. Thanks again!Updated the love letter. Thanks again!sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-50127388526100757252015-10-29T11:09:21.845-07:002015-10-29T11:09:21.845-07:00Yes, please feel free to use the graph as you see ...Yes, please feel free to use the graph as you see fit. The love letter post seems appropriate as I think all Leaf owners need to understand the limitations of DCFC. Since there are diminishing returns at the high end, why wait longer than you need to?<br /><br />The temperature component is very interesting and I will keep monitoring the charge at different temperatures if I can. You can see from one of the other plots where the battery temperature was near 100, but the charge was very full, and the outside temperature was quite warm (85 degrees?) since it was taken a couple weeks ago during our SD heat wave. Doing more research I realize that getting the charge that high when the temperature was so hot was a bad idea. But I'm not sure that battery temperature is the rate limiter here because the 2nd and 3rd graphs were taken at very different temperatures but appear to have the same trajectory relative to charge % as the first graph does.<br /><br />The Magenta %GIDS is the charge % that I see on the car dashboard. I can't say I really understand the difference with SOC%.<br /><br />As a small gov guy as well, I see the subsidy as a small return of the massive sums that have been confiscated from me over the years. Same goes for the PV subsidy. I like the reduction in foreign oil imports as well.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112237835146420939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-3608684528380785282015-10-29T10:22:35.164-07:002015-10-29T10:22:35.164-07:00Wow, that graph is fantastic! Thanks! I hope other...Wow, that graph is fantastic! Thanks! I hope other Leaf drivers become aware of this. All the Leaf drivers who have to pay to charge would benefit, and all those who get NCTC would understand how slow it becomes and hopefully disconnect at 80% (or sooner). May I incorporate the plot in my blog? Which post do you prefer to be in? I think this would be a good place.<br /><br />http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/love-letter-to-nissan-leaf-dcfc-users.html<br /><br />If you went to 88%, is magenta the soc in %? If so, power seems to drop below 40kW (price point you'd pay more than L2) at 55%. This would be of importance to those who have to pay to charge.<br /><br />I'm surprised by temperature at 87F; I thought it'd be over 100 degreesF. I wonder how Leaf DCFC would do in hot temperature above 87F; my suspicion is that it'd be slower.<br /><br />There's nothing wrong NCTC if people use it reasonably, which it seems you're doing. I'm sure there are lots of Leaf drivers who use it reasonably. But almost all encounters with NCTC Leaf have been those who charge above 90% at far less than 6kW while having everyone wait. They probably wouldn't if they had to pay, and that's my point.<br /><br />As for EV subsidy, I think of it as reducing taxes. As a small government kind of guy, I don't like paying taxes, and getting some back by EV subsidy is a great way to reduce taxes, especially since side benefit of EV would be to eliminate paying ISIS through oil imports (tiny percent for us, huge amount for them).sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-24209069831914711262015-10-28T23:41:18.174-07:002015-10-28T23:41:18.174-07:00I know you were interested in the charging rates v...I know you were interested in the charging rates vs. charge plot in other posts so I generated a couple of graphs using a proper tool rather than eyeballing the rates from eVgo screen. Click the link for the graph and then zoom in because there is a lot of resolution there. I put three different charge sessions into an image that show differences between the charge rate, SOC, and temperature.<br /><br />https://www.dropbox.com/s/ts7mt1bh4ic92b0/Charging%20graphs.png?dl=0<br /><br />The first graph is the most interesting, which is the charge I just completed. The battery was at 24% at start and ended at 88% in 30 minutes. The temperature here in Mira Mesa was 70 degrees @ 10PM. The battery started at 70 degrees and ended at 87 degrees. The rate was 41Kw, increasing to 44Kw until around 58% charge and then it was a somewhat linear drop to about 9Kw over the last 21 minutes. That works out to 34% in the first 9 minutes and another 30% in the last 21 minutes. The last image is showing the voltage of each cell and SOH%.<br /><br />I, of course, take advantage of NCTC as a new Leaf owner because I have a charger only a couple blocks from home. It's very convenient for me to go at night when nobody will be there and read.<br />Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112237835146420939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-65072037210783272092015-10-28T19:00:38.931-07:002015-10-28T19:00:38.931-07:00In another post, I break down the bad behaviors in...In another post, I break down the bad behaviors in 3 parts: Leafed, Leafracked, Leafrackers; most people already know ICED.<br /><br />http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/jerks-all-around-us-iced-leafed.html<br /><br />Leafrackers are like the girl I encountered who pulled into dual head, then refused to move her car even after I explained that we could charge together. While many newbies may do this, doing this when knowing that it blocks CCS is being a Leafracker. There's nothing to be done with the personality disorder, though NCTC is making it worse.<br /><br />Getting Leafracked is when one's waiting for DCFC when Leaf is currently charging at less than 6kW. This is the result of NCTC. They wouldn't plug-in in the first place or would disconnect when it gets more expensive than 2 MPG gas car. I try to educate Leaf drivers with MPGe$ table in another blog post.<br /><br />http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/love-letter-to-nissan-leaf-dcfc-users.html<br /><br />Getting Leafed is when one's waiting for DCFC when Leaf is charging slower than 40kW, but greater than 6.6kW. This is a direct result of Leaf (the car) problem, and not much can be done. Still, it would be nice if Leaf drivers disconnect at 80% and move to L2.<br /><br />I have a feeling once people have to pay, great many of these problems will go away. Until then, I only hope the word spreads among Leaf drivers so we can minimize the wait for everyone. I also hope that my table will help them when it comes time to pay.<br /><br />Hmm. This is becoming more Leaf blog than SparkEV blog...<br />sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-71581161844110859062015-10-28T18:02:22.794-07:002015-10-28T18:02:22.794-07:00My guess is that many Leaf owners using NCTC don&#...My guess is that many Leaf owners using NCTC don't understand the combo vs Chademo only stations. The first couple times I went I didn't realize that both chargers couldn't be used at the same time. I did notice the difference by my 3rd charge and will always use the correct one if possible. Perhaps you should politely explain to Leaf owners the problem when you encounter it. <br /><br />The problem is education because all of this is so new. If people understand how the charging works, we might have more courteous owners. But I do understand your point regarding NCTC.<br /><br />I would raise another point regarding environmentalism that many EV owners espouse. An EV is not necessarily helping to "save the planet". That is currently an asinine thought. The vast majority of electricity is generated from non renewable resources that are not clean. So unless an EV owner is getting all their energy from their own solar panels, they are crazy to think they are doing anything special for the environment. I, like sparkev, drive a leaf because it was cheap, simple, and very cost effective to drive. Combine that with my roof PV system, and you have an incredible combo. But without the stupid subsidies, the personal economics aren't quite as sweet.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112237835146420939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-10742127960285470292015-10-23T14:37:22.521-07:002015-10-23T14:37:22.521-07:00I don't know if environmental altruism is nece...I don't know if environmental altruism is necessarily connected to human altruism. There may be some, but I think polite / considerate has far more to do with other factors.<br /><br />What is certain is that there will be jerks, and more of them as EV become more popular. Unfortunately, we will have to live with more jerks taking dual-head while perfectly good Chademo is left empty. But chances of needless long waits will be significantly reduced if jerky behavior comes with monetary penalty (ie. pay per time to use charger). They'll optimize charging to save their penny, which benefits everyone and EV reputation by having less waiting.<br /><br />In case of the bad incident I had (30 min of my time, 16 min of another Leaf's time), she probably wouldn't have plugged-in in the first place if she had to pay. Even if she did plug-in, she probably would've disconnected in about 5 minutes when it was charging slowly, and costing her more than 25 MPG gas car. If she really needed more, she would've switched to L2 which cost 1/6 the price of fast charge per unit time, and it would've been charging just as fast as DCFC.<br /><br />Unfortunately, Nissan and BMW are continuing with their free charging programs, and I fear we'll have more bad reputation for EV and mocked for long charging times and needless waiting.<br />sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-55084507627093689862015-10-23T13:08:21.230-07:002015-10-23T13:08:21.230-07:00The bit I added about the environment was based on...The bit I added about the environment was based on the assumption that if someone cares enough about the environment to buy an EV mostly to help the planet, then they've already proven they care about things other than themselves. Such a person would be unlikely to be unwilling to spend 2 minutes moving their car to save you 30 minutes. That isn't to say that everyone who buys an EV to save money without thinking about the environment will be a jerk to their fellow drivers... or buying an EV simply to save money is a bad thing... it still saves the planet... but I think it also has a higher chance of growing the pool of jerk EV drivers that will not care about anyone else at the charging station.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17777107597294408064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-5681619475457859572015-10-19T18:43:57.150-07:002015-10-19T18:43:57.150-07:00What I meant was "no charge to take fast char...What I meant was "no charge to take fast charge spot while SLOW charging"<br /><br />As for entitlement, let's say there are two supermarket checkouts, one for those who get free groceries, and another for everyone (free and pay). Someone who gets free groceries with 2 carts full (30 minutes worth) get in line in everyone's checkout while the free checkout is open. After she has one item checked (no need to unload the cart in this robotic store), someone who must pay comes to line and asks her politely if would use the free checkout so both can checkout at the same time. She says she's already started, and doesn't want to move, and goes off to shopping. Meanwhile, the other person waits full 30 minutes before his 16 minutes (fewer groceries) before he can pay. Does the person who has to wait 30 extra minutes needlessly, then pay for his groceries have entitlement issues for complaining?sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-88491705676017372292015-10-19T16:57:57.735-07:002015-10-19T16:57:57.735-07:00If Leaf actually paid for their charging, they'...If Leaf actually paid for their charging, they're not likely to charge slower than L2 rate while paying 6 times higher cost, making it cost more than 10 MPG gas car. Most of these guys wouldn't even bother plugging into fast charger if they had to pay at public DCFC if they can charge at home. Even if they're using public DCFC, they'd get off much sooner than 30 minutes when the car reaches 80% when it gets more expensive to charge than 10 MPG gas car. The entire problem is due to it being free, and long lines as a result. <br /><br />EV adoption is fine. Giving out free charging is the problem. Without free charging, I suspect over 75% would be freed up. In fact, I think every Leaf I saw had free charge, but only few (three) were using it for intercity travel; at that level, it'd be more than 90% freed up.<br /><br />I don't have a choice in not to watch another EV while waiting. What, walk away, and have another Leaf to "no charge to take fast charge spot while charging"? What do you do other than sit and watch others when you have to wait for charger or gas pump at busy gas station?sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-64075220999901341522015-10-19T16:40:15.268-07:002015-10-19T16:40:15.268-07:00She may have gotten there first by a few minutes, ...She may have gotten there first by a few minutes, but that it is just crazy for her to hog the only dual-standard charger while there is a perfectly good CHAdeMO-only charger right beside it - I would have taken issue with it as well (and I'm a Leaf owner)Andrewhttp://kootenayevfamily.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-38377994780625709682015-10-19T15:38:48.751-07:002015-10-19T15:38:48.751-07:00Thats so funny - seems like both sides of this arg...Thats so funny - seems like both sides of this argument have entitlement issues!<br />Any EV (even Tesla) suffers from charge taper, so why should their charge be any less important than yours. Is it just because its slower or that they before you in line?<br />Obviously EV adoption need to be much lower so you can keep your access to "your" chargers for longer - you seem to have the time to sit around watching someone else's car charge after all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-80294635656088166302015-10-19T09:13:09.452-07:002015-10-19T09:13:09.452-07:00I live in San Diego, but I drive to LA/OC often. M...I live in San Diego, but I drive to LA/OC often. Most Leaf I encounter have "No charge to take up fast charge spot". Especially evil incident on Oct 17 occurred at Anaheim behind Forever 21.<br /><br />If Leaf can actually charge to 100% at DCFC rate like SparkEV, that wouldn't be a problem since next car could charge after first Leaf is done. But Leaf slows down so drastically that I've seen some Leaf charge at 2kW rate at 95% SoC. I have never seen any Leaf reach 100% with 30 minutes of DCFC, even when they start with 80% SoC.<br /><br />BMW gives similar program, but they can actually charge to 100% if they start with high SoC%. In fact, BMW driver went out of his way to help me with DCFC.<br /><br />http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/05/you-meet-nicest-people-in-ev.html<br /><br />There's nothing wrong with cheap EV lease. For example, I get cheap lease (cheaper than $3000 used car), and I don't care about the environment compared to ICE cars. Biggest problem is that it's free to charge for 30 minutes, and everyone tries takes 30 minutes. Why would you take any less when it's free while it costs money to charge at home? But in case of Leaf and the slow charging, it's ALWAYS 30 minutes. sparkevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04362518920979349841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6875771813122616391.post-61631476631105156282015-10-19T08:38:02.648-07:002015-10-19T08:38:02.648-07:00Ugh. Horrible people. Where do you live with all...Ugh. Horrible people. Where do you live with all these jerks? I've always heard EV owners were more courteous than average.<br /><br />If you don't feel like making a scene at the time, maybe write a letter explaining how much time this person cost you and that charging above 80% damages the batteries and leave it on their windshield. Of course if they're leasing maybe they don't care if they damage the batteries charging to 100% regularly.<br /><br />I think cheap leases to people who just want to save gas money and don't care about the environment might be another reason this situation is building... Nissan really needs to put some limits on free charging or build up the number of chargers if this is the current state of things.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17777107597294408064noreply@blogger.com